Two men look on while feminist and anti-feminist slug it out. Who won the argument?

Deborah Orr

Claire Khaw

      











Deborah Orr
Westminster is the real anachronism, not the European Union @DeborahJaneOrr http://gu.com/p/3bht2  via @guardian

Westminster is the real anachronism, not the European Union
Deborah Orr: Europe is still being used as a lazy-push-button topic for inflaming passions and sentiments, and little else
 The Guardian @guardian
8
RETWEETS
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FAVORITES
11:02 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Meaningless drivel. What on earth do you mean?
11:05 AM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
From you, that's a compliment. Many thanks.
11:10 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
At least I cared enough to ask, though I can see you are not going to bother explaining.
11:17 AM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw ‏
Bet you can't explain or clarify what you mean and no one else can be bothered to ask. If only I were Grauniad editor!
11:17 AM - 3 Nov 12


Deborah Orr
Westminster is a highly centralised government. There's little local political accountability. That's the problem, not the EU.
11:23 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw ‏
Why is it bad to have a highly centralised government?
11:31 AM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
It makes regional economic disparities hard to address, thus increasing them.
11:34 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Give an example of a regional economic disparity that is hard to address.
11:35 AM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
If a national economy were, say, to rely on financial services, then areas without that infrastructure are at a disadvantage.
11:39 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw 
Government should just cut red tape and cut taxes to encourage businesses, whether or not we have a centralised government!
11:44 AM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr ‏
You're essentially suggesting that government should aim to make itself obsolete. Can't get less centralised than that.
11:49 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I am a #libertarian and believe it would be in the long-term national interest to have fewer laws and lower taxes.
11:52 AM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Yes. I'm so impressed by your #libertarian tolerance, particularly of feminism.
11:59 AM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw 
I am surprised you have not noticed that #totalitarian #feminism is anti-#libertarian.
12:02 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Being #libertarian means at the very least you must hate all #thoughtcrime laws but libertarians are mostly degenerate.
12:03 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I would be the first to say that most #libertarians are distinguished by their pride, ignorance and incompetence.
12:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Did you know that a #dictator can in theory be #libertarian?
12:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
I'm surprised that your "liberatianism" excludes women from having choices. #totalitarian #feminism #libertarian
12:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr ‏
I think you'll find that description fits the majority of people who lust for power. #libertarians
12:06 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Most women would choose to have legitimate children with a husband who gives her the choice of being a housewife.
12:07 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
#Feminism has deprived most women of the choice of being a housewife and the mothers of legitimate children.
12:08 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
#Feminism has forced most women to expend their energies competing with men for a careers they don't really want.
12:08 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I am saying that #libertarians are particularly incompetent, that is why they have no party and have to join UKIP.
12:09 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Since you are then by definition not "most women", I'm surprised you see yourself as competent to say what "they" want.
12:12 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Most mothers of young children DO NOT WANT TO GO OUT TO WORK. Ask @CristinaOhq
12:15 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
In the rep-tape-free world you admire - the early industrial age - women took their children to work with them, 1/2
12:18 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr ‏
and their children worked too the moment they were able to. 2/2

Claire Khaw 
Don''t quite see why you are saying I want children to work in mines and factories just because I question #feminism!
12:22 PM - 3 Nov 12 ·

Claire Khaw
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1219131/What-women-REALLY-want-Forget-working-Superwoman-ideal-mothers-value-time-home-children-Cristina-Odone.html by @CristinaOhq shows that mothers want to stay home.

What women REALLY want: Forget the working Superwoman, mothers value...
Millions have been left frustrated and miserable by Government policies that push them into jobs and their children into nurseries, Cristina Odone said
 Daily Mail Online @MailOnline
12:23 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
You do understand that "mothers" and "women" aren't synonymous?
12:24 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr 
And you do understand that "rep tape" and "taxes" provide maternity leave?
12:25 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Of course I know not all women are mothers. What is your point?
12:30 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Maternity leave should be abolished. It is too much a burden on British businesses.
12:31 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
My point is that you can't base a critique of feminism on what mothers want in the brief time when they are caring for babies.
12:33 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Of course. Businesses being far more important than babies.

12:34 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw 
Women are needed in the home while their children are at school. I make that seven years, at least.
 12:38 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw 
Businesses need babies to grow up into employable adults. #Feminism damages the prospects of this through working mothers.
12:39 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
So hard, eh, to know whether a girl will grow up to be an "employable adult" or a "working mother"? #Feminism
12:41 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw ‏
Public policy should be framed for the greater good of the greater number. #Feminism is destructive to the greater good.
12:46 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Women's work is in the home anyway. We have seen the result of their neglecting this work.
12:50 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
You believe that prior to feminism, human history was an unbroken period of well-adjusted, well-parented bliss? You're a joke.
12:50 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Sod off, you self-hating, misandrist fool.
12:52 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I have no idea why you are calling me a #misandrist. I do not hate men. I am not a #misogynist either.
12:58 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I am afraid you are proving again that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with a #feminist about #feminism.
12:59 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
You think men are incapable of caring for children or respecting women as equals. #misanthrope #misandrist #misogynist
1:00 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
The West was less degenerate pre-feminist, within living memory, and you know it.
1:00 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
I think the best suited people should be doing the jobs they are best suited for. This seems obvious to me.
1:01 PM - 3 Nov 12


Deborah Orr
When?
1:01 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
Would you make women soldiers, miners and sewage treatment operatives and men nannies and nurses? This seems irrational.
1:02 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
When women being single mothers was not considered the norm, of course!
1:03 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
No, you have a cliched fantasy view, in which all women find looking after homes and babies fulfilling.
1:03 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw ‏
You really are demonstrating how fundamentally undemocratic #feminism is.
1:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
I wouldn't assume that gender alone could categorically predict who was suited for what job.
1:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
I never said "all", I said "most" women want to be mothers. Do not forget the greater good of the greater number!
1:04 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Exactly what period are you referring to?
1:05 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
How would you feel if all female nannies were replaced by male nannies? You are being ridiculous now, please!
1:06 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Bye. I actually do have a home and children to attend to. #feminism
1:06 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
I'm not making any of these bonkers suggestions, you twit. You're the one who thinks gender should define capability.
1:07 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
When these shows were made: BEWITCHED, HAPPY DAYS, WAIT TILL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME, for starters.
1:07 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Bye, Deborah. Nice chatting, and have a nice day.
1:08 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Tell me the decades to which you refer.
1:08 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
Women can be good teachers and lawyers and be just as good as men in these fields. What is your point?
1:09 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
The 50s and 60s. It was in the 70s when the rot set in with the Sex Revolution and the Sex Discrimination Act.
1:10 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
Your idea that any woman would be a better nanny or nurse than any man is frankly hilarious.
1:10 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
When a woman dials 999 for the emergency services we should send only WPCs, female paramedics and female firefighters then.
1:11 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
I am talking about statistical probability.
1:12 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr ‏
Ah, yes. The good old days. http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/1859352227.pdf
1:20 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
The poor will always be with us, and we must choose the lesser evil. The matriarchy is clearly the greater evil.
1:22 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr 
What matriarchy is this? Thatcherism?
1:23 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw ‏
A patriarchy condones male promiscuity, a matriarchy condones female promiscuity. We live in a matriarchy.
1:24 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr
You think this society condemns male promiscuity?
1:26 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
In reality, Clegg, Cameron and Miliband are the equivalent of the Head Butler, Head Gardner and Coachman of the #SSM
1:27 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
Our society punishes male promiscuity through the Child Support Agency and promotes female promiscuity through it.
1:28 PM - 3 Nov 12


Deborah Orr
Isn't that a "punishment" for male failure to look after their children at all, even financially?
1:33 PM - 3 Nov 12


Deborah Orr
Presumable the CSA doesn't particularly target men who have had sex with many women?
1:34 PM - 3 Nov 12

Claire Khaw
‏A man who is not your husband is not having sex with you in order to father a child and pay for it! Women shd know that.
1:35 PM - 3 Nov 12


Claire Khaw
If I were dictator, no father would be obliged to pay for the child of a mother he is not married to.
1:36 PM - 3 Nov 12


Alex Andreou ‏@sturdyAlex
@DeborahJaneOrr Think of your blood pressure.
1:36 PM - 3 Nov 12 · Details

Claire Khaw
There was a dastardly plot to prevent men from getting DNA tests to prove that the baby in question was not theirs.
1:38 PM - 3 Nov 12

Dr Ian Kenny ‏@ianskenny
@DeborahJaneOrr Hats off to you for entering into this debate
1:59 PM - 3 Nov 12

Deborah Orr ‏@DeborahJaneOrr
@ianskenny You mean Ms Khaw? Hardly a debate. Without her outlandish imaged iconoclasm, she'd have no idea who she is.
2:30 PM - 3 Nov 12 · Details

Deborah Orr ‏@DeborahJaneOrr
@sturdyAlex You mean Ms Khaw? I occasionally engage with her, because I feel sorry for her and guilty when I ignore the poor thing too much.
2:28 PM - 3 Nov 12

Dr Ian Kenny ‏@ianskenny
@DeborahJaneOrr yes, I nearly put debate in 'scare quotes' but thought that could be misinterpreted as a dig at you. So I didn't.
2:32 PM - 3 Nov 12