Guardian writer, Tehmina Kazi, a "Muslim", disliked my comments so much she blocked me on Facebook
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| Tehmina Kazi, Director of BMSD |
https://apps.facebook.com/theguardian/commentisfree/belief/2011/oct/07/ottoman-empire-secular-history-sharia
I have met this lady and our exchanges previously had been friendly. However, because she is a woman she has conformed to type and is simply doing what most women do, which is to silence and demonise those who disagree with them in their totalitarian way.
Tehmina praised the fact that Ottoman Emperior decriminalised homosexuality.
To this I said:
Tehmina would support the legalisation of homosexuality and ignoring the Koranic injunction against homosexuality.
What makes her [as a Muslim] think that liberalism is a superior to Koranic principles? What right has she to unilaterally decide that homosexuality should be legalised when it says plainly in the Koran that it is forbidden?
004.015
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
PICKTHAL: As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
SHAKIR: And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
004.016
YUSUFALI: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is ever relenting, Merciful.
SHAKIR: And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
So Tehmina is just going to IGNORE it then, is she, because she has decided that Koranic principles should SUBMIT to liberal laws of gay couples being allowed to marry each other?
Is she no longer a Muslim then?
Secularism means just valuing godless ideologies above established religion. It means that secular governments have the power to pass legislation that offends against religious principles. Tehmina clearly thinks that liberalism should prevail over Islam, and is happy to do so.
But it is annoying that Muslims like Tehmani think the Koran is like the Woolworth's Pick and Mix section.
It is only criminal when there are 4 witnesses ....
To this Tehmina said:
Thanks folks! I wondered why Claire Khaw was trolling on my wall - I had defriended her a few months ago and thought my wall was only open to Friends? Must be the new Facebook settings
before blocking me.
For lesbians, you need to have 4 witnesses to your lesbian act before you can be convicted. Unless you are an incorrigible exhibitionist, I think you would be safe from persecution.
Even if you were successfully prosecuted someone would have to stand guard outside your house to confine you until you are dead, and they will probably find they have other fish to fry after they have calmed down a bit.
So I think most lesbians would be left well alone.
049.012
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it...But fear Allah: For Allah is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Shun much suspicion; for lo! some suspicion is a crime. And spy not, neither backbite one another. Would one of you love to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Ye abhor that (so abhor the other)! And keep your duty (to Allah). Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! avoid most of suspicion, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin, and do not spy nor let some of you backbite others. Does one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? But you abhor it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
Do not spy on homosexuals to obtain evidence of their homosexuality. So only those who are incorrigible cottagers get done.
I don't have a problem with any of this.
The point is that the Koran would never make even a long term homosexual relationship equal to marriage, and that is fair enough for me.
The tax advantage to having a civil partnership is to inherit free of 40% inheritance tax. My concession to homosexuals in a long term relationship would be this: abolish inheritance tax altogether. I think this would be very popular even amongst heterosexuals with offspring.
Why can't Tehmina debate this in a sensible fashion? The reason is not because she is a Muslim but because she is a woman and a liberal who writes for The Guardian.
http://thebattlefieldoflove.blogspot.com/2008/06/male-priests-civil-partnership-blessed.html
http://thebattlefieldoflove.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-islam-would-arrest-qualitative-and.html
http://thebattlefieldoflove.blogspot.com/2008/06/male-priests-civil-partnership-blessed.html
http://thebattlefieldoflove.blogspot.com/2010/05/how-islam-would-arrest-qualitative-and.html
Comments
Firstly, my wall is for Facebook friends only, and as I defriended you a few months ago for making personal remarks about friends of mine who were involved in the "Defend Usama Hasan campaign," I don't know how you managed to comment on it. It must be the new Facebook settings.
Secondly, I blocked you because you were clogging up the wall with your posts and making personal remarks about me i.e. asking whether I had left Islam and calling me a "pick and mix Muslim." If you had expressed your dissent in a more civil fashion, I would have been happy for you to continue. There are plenty of others on the thread who disagree with my views, and are still commenting. Ask our mutual friends if you don't believe me.
Tehmina Kazi
If only people were not so thin-skinned and not bent on nursing their easily-hurt feelings in this over-feminised society, perhaps we might have an intelligent discussion about important matters that so many fear to discuss.
I am afraid there is no polite way of putting it.
If someone who calls herself a Muslim says she submits to liberal values in preference to what is plainly stated in the Koran, then they are not even a moderate Muslim. They are not a Muslim at all!
Or perhaps they are a kafir Muslim - a Muslim who hides away inconvenient truths or hides away from them.
If you are not such a kafir, I would be interested to hear from you as to how and why you are not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir
It does seem ironic that I, who am not a Muslim and who does not believe in God, should find herself a better Muslim than you.
I at least know the Koran better than you, Tehmina!
If you are a Muslim then you must believe that the Koran is the revealed Word of God, must you not?
I am not a Muslim but am happy to abide by what the Koran says (under my own interpretation, of course) even if I do not actually believe in God.
There is a verse in the Koran that states it is a grave sin to allow what God has forbidden just as it is a grave sin to forbid what God has allowed.
Saturday at 22:43 · Unlike · 3 people
Khaleel Mohammed IF one wants to be literal, the Quran does not say about homo. being punished. As claire observed...there has to be witnesses. Now even if a legally married couple were to have heterosexual sex in the presence of witnesses, they too would be punished. not hadd. but punished nonetheless. My point therefore is to analyze the picture that the Qu'ran is presenting. again...and that is only going with literal readings."
The point is that homosexuality is a sin according to the Koran which clearly says so, and you want to interpret it away because it doesn't suit you!
My interpretation makes perfect sense.
Lesbians, don't commit lewd acts with each other in public places where 4 witnesses may witness your lewd act and testify against you.
Gay men, no cottaging please.
What is wrong with my interpretation?
To say you want homosexuality decriminalised and done everywhere would offend against public decency, which I imagine you would care about, as a Muslim, or just a right-thinking member of society.
Dr K Muhmmad does not express himself clearly at all, and I have no idea what he is saying.
Rebel Laila Hayek:
"Your comments are reasonable - Tehmina is just showing off her ideology on the texts! Some texts can and must be understood absolutely because of their wording, as per the famous classical juristic principle, "the generality of the wording is not limited by the specificity of the context" - some require context to be understood...
And I do find it amusing that she cites the Ottomans - peoples who implemented the sharia at a sociopolitical level whilst she supports secularism!"
"Yes, what the Koran says that homosexuality is a sin, even if it makes it virtually impossible to convict lesbians.
It is open to interpretation whether male homosexuals are subjected to the same 4 witnesses requirement to convict. I wouldn't have thought so though."
"The Quran/ahadith elaborate further the story of the Prophet Lut and the condemn homosexuality, as does the narration of "kill the doer and the one to whom it is done". The famous companion Umar(ra) recommended the penal punishment for convicted homosexuals be they are thrown from the highest point! The jurists had similar views through Muslim history... It is little more than dishonest to argue otherwise and clutching at straws and exceptionalist examples to try to argue as such..."
"The point is that the Koran does specify that homosexuals should be punished in some way."
"Decriminilising homosexuality is against the JudeoChristian rules as well - Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and others."
"Liberals believe they know better than God."
"Latest stat shows that only 1.6% of adult population consider themselves as gay, so why the disproportionate attention and allocation of resources to this group."
"To annoy us and to show us that the matriarchy is now in charge."
"This link shows that people are willing to push the boundaries because in the Western dominated, non-Shariah world they can. This doesn't make their lifestyle legitimate simply because they can get away with it in our present situation."
http://www.advocate.com/News/News_Features/Pink_Crescents_Being_Gay_and_Muslim/
"Exactly, they just pick and choose the bits of the religion that suit them. If they truly believed in their God/Prophet/whatever, they would follow all the rules."
"Claire, I find it extremely difficult to digest some of your views at times without being completely baffled or bewildered, but I think only bigots would disagree that Tehmina Kazi is clinging at straws here. The liberals ignore the shariah their whole lives, and when one of their own learns enough shariah to be able to add some weight to their argument with overuse of terms they probably don't understand the essence of, it's pick and mix time of even the shariah (usuli, faqih, ijtihad - that must be their favourite!).
It is absolutely true that the shariah is not concerned with spying or thought control Only when an offence is made public will the mandate be applied, and indeed confessions are discouraged: the Prophet (upon whom be peace) urged Muslims to repent to God after a sin rather than confess to the authorities."
PW